....THE SS GOLDEN SUN ARRIVES IN
SAN FRANCISCO...
This image is the record of the arrival of the SS Golden Sun in San Francisco. You can see that the date of the arrival is November 19th, 1934 and that the highlighted crew member is Carl Webb. He is stated as being 'English' and he is 28 Years old. His height is shown as being 5' 8".
A number of questions arise from this document:
1. Was he English?
In the pre-war years, it was quite common for Australians to put their nationality down as English, thanks to Peter Davidson for that information.
2. Carl Webb's Date of Birth was November 16th, 1905 according to Professor Abbott in a Newspaper article, that would make him 29 and not 28, wouldn't it?
On checking Victorian State Records, I found that there was no child named Carl Webb born in 1905 and just one born in Footscray in 1906 so that makes this mans age a match to the birth of Carl Webb. I have checked NSW records and there was no Carl Webb born in NSW in 1906. Neither was there one born in SA, Queensland, Western Australia, Northern Territory or Tasmania. Still looking for online records for Northern Territory but no one there thus far. I would say there was only one Carl Webb born in Australia in 1906. That makes him 28 years old in 1934.
(It seems that the date given by Professor Abbott to the ABC of 1905 was incorrect but will still keep looking)
3. The Somerton Man was 5' 11" tall when examined by Dr.Dwyer but on the form, Carl Webb is shown as 5' 8" tall, doesn't that mean that it isn't the right man?
According to media reports, no mention has been made of Carl Webb's height, no description at all in fact. The other interesting aspect is that when the bust was made, Paul Lawson did not record the height of the man he was working on. What it could mean is that the man 'Carl Webb' touted as the Somerton Man, was not in fact the Somerton Man at all.. That's what this evidence seems to say.
It is still early days in this particular research so let's breathe easy whilst we look further into this aspect.
Oceanic Oriental Line Ships:
For the serious researcher, here's a list of all Ships operated by the Oceanic & Oriental Line in the 20s and 30s, they all have the prefix GOLDEN, and there were 18 listed:
1. 26593'Golden Bear.. 2. 26595/Golden Coast .. 3. 26596/Golden Cross
4. 26697|Golden Dragon .. 5. 26598/Golden Hagle.. 6. 26602 Golden Harvest
7. 26608 Golden Hind .. 8. 26604/Golden Horn.. 9. 96605\Golden Kauri
10. 26606/Golden Mountain .. 11. 96607\|Golden Peak.. 12. Golden River
13. 26611/Golden Star.. 14. 26612|Golden State.. 15. 26613|Goiden Sun
16. 26614|Golden Tide .. 17. 66> Golden, Wall.. 18. 26616|Golden West
The task now is to see when and if any of these listed ships visited Australian Ports and whether Carl Webb was on board. Given that his record states that he had 11 years of service by 1934, that would mean that he would have joined the line in 1923 at the age of 18. This narrows down the search a little, we may be able to find more information about him in that year. In particular, we are looking for the place of birth and next of kin details.
Below are the extracts from Lloyds Register for each of the 18 ships operated by Oceanic & Oriental line:
1. 26593'Golden Bear SteelScSr 1919 LsAngeles OeebhtosOnentat 4.10°0)54°4|2 R
217908|(er WestCajoot) itted for oil fuel 8.B.&D.D.Co.|NavigationCo. P43'B115'F47' *
LQSR|Llec.light Wireless D.F. Dhs L.AngelesOal
2. 26595/Golden Coast SteelSc 1920/8. Western |Oceanic& Oriental |410°5|54°2|27-2/s.Frnoiscofl'.30y.24}",414°&72" 48" R
219p37|(ex West Nivaria) Fitted for oil fuel P46'B112’F46' Utd.States [LlewellynLron Ba9N *
LWJQ| Elec.light Ref.Mchy. “2Dks Works, LosA ngeles,Cal.
Wireless D.F.
3. 26596/Golden Cross SteelScsr 1919\J.F F. Duthie]Oceanic& Oriental |409°7|54°2/27°7/S.Frncisco/T.80y.24h",414’872'48" R
218426 ye exWestHenshaw) Fitted /or oil fuel) i P44'B115'F47' Utd. States |Hooven,Owens, 359NH %
LRIM|Llec light Ref. Mchy. 2Dks Seattle, Wash RentschlerCo,Hamilton,O
Wireless D.F.
4. 26697|Golden Dragon BteelSc 1921 ‘LsAngeles Oceanic& Oriental |430°3|54°0|35'4/s.Frnciscoll’.380y.284",47°s78' 48" R
291696|(exWestChopaka) Fitted for oil fuel! 8.B.&D.D.Co,JNavigationOo. Utd. States|LosAngeles8.B. 422NEP *
MDBW) Llec.light 2Dkaj Shelter dit &D.D.Co.SanPedro,CalJ
Wireless
5. 26598/Golden Hagle SteolScS: 1919) LsAngeles Oceanic&Cciental {410°0|54°4|27:2|s.Frncisco }T BOy.284",477&78"—48 R
218048] (ex WestConob) tlh oil fuel S.B.&D.D.Co.|NavigationCo. P43'B115'F47 Utd. States *
LRCT| Llec.light Dis SanPedro,Cal| - BT
UES see No. 40501 i Sryyplepigy nen habe aay ae
26 SteelPad| 4 3 1909|J.Brown& |GeneralSteamNav.}275°7|32°1|10°i|London | D.8Cy.804",464’&71"-60" :
129003 Co.Ld. Q16' British A55NEP
HIM! Zlec.Light 1Dk$ Prom.dk \Olydebank J Brown Co.Ld.Clydebnk
6. 26602 Golden Harvest SteelSc| 564 - 1920|Western Oceanic& Oriental |410°5/54°0|27°1/S.Frnoiscofl.aCy.244",414"472"—48" R
919832 = cWestCalora) Fitted for oil Fuel Pipe&Steel |NavigationCo. P46'B112' 46’ Utd. States Joshua 859NEP) *
LWFH|Wireless D.F. Flec.light 2Dks Co. SF rncisco WB) HendyCo.SanFranciseo
7. 26608 Golden Hind Steelse | 1921)Lis.Angeles|Oceanic&Oriontal }430°7|54°3|26°2\8.Frncisco |T.380y.28}",47"&78"-48" R
221385|(ea WestFaralon) Fitted for oil fuel} — | S.B.&D.D.0o.JNavigationOo. Utd, States LosAngeless. B. 422NP *
MOVQ|Elec.light 2Dhs§ Shelter dh} | SanPedro,Cal WB) &D.D.Co.SanPedro,Cal,
Wireless $595 :
8. 26604/Golden Horn Steelse| 6367 1919|\Skinner& |Oceanic&Oriental j402°6|54°9/32°1|S.FrnciscolT'.30y.25”,42"«72/—48" k
919157|(eaCrisfield) Fitted for oil fuell 5872 | EddyCorp.|NavigationCo. IP48’F'42' Utd. States Bh9NEP *
LTM3|Hlec.light Wireless 2Dhs 4011 Seattle, Wash WBkinner& EddyCorp.Sea,
Longitudinal framing | ‘ell
9. 96605\Golden Kauri Steelse| 5560 1919/Skinner& |Occanic&Oriental |}409'6|54°2|27-1|S.Frncisco|DR Geared Steam Turbine R
217492|(ex WestEleajon) Fitted for oilfuell 5166 | HddyCorp. |NavigationCo, P43'B115/F47' Utd. States |General HlectricCo. *
LPQJ\Llec.light Wireless 2Dks| 8471 | Seattle, Wash WE Schenectady,N.Y,
10. 26606/Golden Mountain Steelse| 5069 | 1920\GMStandi-|Oceanic& Oriental |401°4]53°2|31°9|8.Frncisco/l.8Cy.244"41}"&72"—43" R
219550|(exBearport) Fitted for oil fuel) 5563! ferCnstCorp |NavigationCo, | P48’ B81’F'38" Utd. States 359N *
LYMQ|Llec Light 1Dk& Shelter Dk\ 3810 Vancouver, WB)H ooven,Owens,Rent-
Wireless Longitudinal framing Wash. schlerCo.Hamilton,O.
11. 96607\|Golden Peak Steelse| /031 1919|Skinner& {Oceanic& Oriental |410°5 54:2} 35'11S.Francisco jT.aCy.26" 42872" 43" Rk
219416|(erCrosskeys) Fitted for oil fuel} 6617 EddyCorp. |NavigationCo. P27’ B61’ F19’ Utd. States 58N EPI *
LVDW|Llec.light Wireless 2Dksatr B} 4381 Seattle, Wash WS SeattleMachine Works,
12. Golden River . Steeisc| 6064 1919|Pacific Oceanic&Oriental [402°5|53°0/32-0|8.FrnciscolT.3Cy.24}",41}"472"—43" R
No) SMawtankwer,)” sce Vo. 40090, ipod Viol } Coast8.B.Co|Navigationo. |P34'F38' Utd. States NE29 369NEP. %
LRFT\Sub.Sig. Longitudinal framing) 8817], # |BayPoint, W 5jLiewellynIron W orks,
Llec.light press a Sa a . Cal. : LosAngeles;
Nib ie olden 49161 isesr} 5775 1919|Ames8.B. lOceanic&Oriental [409°8|54:2|29:2|8.Frneiaco {1.30 y.26",43"&78"-48" R |
OW 918 ae a f, Wa Sie ann 5283 &D.D.Co. |NavigationCo. |P44'B119'F47' —- JUtd. States 369NE ‘I
LSNO|Elec.light WirelessD.F. 2Dks 8572 Seattle, Wash WBiAmesS.B.&D.D.Co.Seattle
13. 26611/Golden Star SteelSc 6379 1919|Skinner& |Oceanic& Oriental }402°6|54°8/32°1)S.Frncisco |T.30y.244”,414"«72"-48” R
218812|( ex Hlkridge) “itted for oil fuel] 6976 Eddy Corp. |NavigationCo. P48’F42’ Utd. States 359NEP *
LSPQ|Elec.light Wireless 2Dks| 4017 Seattle, Wash W b\Hooven,Owens, Rent-
Longitudinal framing 2 schlerCo. Hamilton, 0, :
14. 26612|Golden State Steelsel 5646 1920\Western |oceanic& Oriental |410°5|54°2|27°2|8.FrnciscolT 30 y.24}",41}"«72"—48" R
220763] (ex WestCarmona) ‘itted for oil fuel — Pipe&Steel jNavigationCo. P46’ B112°F46’ Utd. States |Joshua 359 NEP) *
MBSQ| Elec.light Wireless © 2Dks} 8517 Co.SFrnciseo WB HendyCo.SanFrancisco
15. 26613|Goiden Sun Steelse| 7460 1921/LsAngeles \Oceanic& Oriental |430°3/54°0|35-4/8.Fracisco|T.3Cy.284",47"&78"—48" R|
221603|(ex WestProspect) Fitted for oil fuel] — $.B.&D.D.Co|NavigationCo. F Utd. States 422N x i
MDCV 2Dks& Shelter dh| 4520 SanPedro,Cal W B|LosAngelesS.B.&D.D.Co. H
Elec.light ‘ Wireless {
16. 26614|Golden Tide Steelse} 6076 1919|GMStandi-lOceanic& Oriental |402°5|53°0|34-5/8.Frncisco |T'.30y.244",41}"&72'—48" R 3
219236|(erMontague) Fitted for oil fuel} 5500 | ferCnst.Corp.|NavigationCo. P48’B81'F37" Utd. States 359N EP * |
LitQs| Mlec.light 1Dk§ Shelter die 2tr b| 8729 Vancouver, WB|Hooven,Owens,Rent- {
Wireless Longitudinal pang Wash. schlerCo,Hamilton,O, |
17. 66> Golden, Wall oplSe 076 1919/4 MStandi-jOceanic& Oriental }401°4./53'2|31°9[S.Frncisco |T.30y.244”,41$"&72’-48” R
B19, i Wet pee 1) 0.4 421 GRite Soba Fuew ss 63 fer Cnst.Corp|NavigationCo. P48’B81'F37' Utd. States 359NEP *
UVMR| Llec.light 1Dk2iv BS Shelter dk| 3729 Vancouver, W B| Hooven,Owens,Rent-
Wireless Longitudinal framing Wash. schierCo. Hamilton.0, [
18. 26616|Golden West Steeise} 5302) 1919)|J.F. DuthielOceanic& Oriental j410°3/54°2|27°7|S.Frncisco |T.3Cy.245",414"«72"—-48" R
219541|(ewWestIvan) Fitted for oil fuell 5113 &Co. NavigationCo. P44'B115' R47! Utd. States ; B59N *
LYMD|Hlec light Ref. Mchy. 2Dks 8639 Seattle, Wash! WB} Hooven, Owens, Rent-
It seems that this is a different Carl Webb? This one doesn’t tally with the electoral roll records and newspaper references to the Webb bakery that are on record for the Charles/Carl Webb currently identified as the Somerton Man…
ReplyDeleteAn update, the date of birth of Carl Webb was given in Newspaper records quoting Professor Abbott as 1905. This is incorrect. Carl Webb was born in Footscray in 1906.. In addition, searches of births in Australia show that there was only one child named Carl Webb born in 1906, that's the one born in Footscray, Victoria. That makes the crewman aboard the Golden Sun, a perfect age match for Carl Webb born in Footscray. I will keep searching.
ReplyDeleteAnnonymous, a couple of things firstly the electoral rolls, if they show Carl as living at a particular address during the times where it appears he was onboard a ship, that's because that would have been his address in Australia. Hard to Post a letter to a ship in those days :)
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to the other references you make, perhaps you could post them here so we can look at them and research them. His Birth Record is plain 'Carl Webb', he may or may not have used the name Charles because of the possibility of his being thought to be German.
The thing to remember with merchant seamen is that they still have a home address. They go away for a few months at a time maybe longer and they get leave. The leave can be for a month or more and sometimes they happen to be at their home port and can spend more time at home then.
ReplyDeleteThe year in the Victorian BDM Registry, is the year that the birth was registered. Births late in the year will often show up against the following registration year.
ReplyDeleteFamily name
Family name: WEBB
Given name(s): Carl
Event: births
Mother's name / Spouse's name: , Eliza Amelia
Mother's family name at birth: GRACE
Father's name: , Richd August
Place of birth: FOOTSCRAY
Place of death:
Spouse at Death:
Age at Death:
Reg. year: 1906
Reg. number: 3146/1906
RE CARL WEBB: The crew record shows an "English' crewman by the name of Carl Webb, his age was 29, so far so good. BUT, his height is only 5' 8", when the Somerton Man was 5' 11". BUT the man of whom Paul Lawson made the bust and from whom the hair samples were taken, looked nothing like the autopsy photograph of the Somerton Man. AND Paul Lawson never recorded the height of the man from who he made the bust. AND there is nothing, so far, in any comments or posts on any blog or forum that provides a height for Carl Webb born in Footscray in 1905/6 the name put forward for the Somerton Man. Where to from here?
ReplyDeleteOn another blog they are attempting to take ownership of the height differential between Carl Webb and the Somerton Man. That would be the same blog that had a go at you when you posted this with specific reference to Paul Lawson not measuring the height of the body. But he had mentioned earlier that the body was smaller than he expected and that was published first on this blog as well. Seems to me there's a bit of wave stealing happening
ReplyDeleteIn all fairness, Pete is approaching it from a different angle based on the family group photograph where Carl and his brother appear to be of a similar height. I actually contributed to that discussion and sent a
ReplyDeletemarked photograph which effectively agrees with Peter's conclusion.
So he's agreeing with me and the position of this blog that Carl Webb because of his facial appearance, the ears and his apparent height, cannot be the Somerton Man.