SOMERTON MAN MYSTERY

The Evidence The Facts In Detail In Depth

The Perils & Pitfalls Of The Old Family Photographs Of Carl Webb.... The Third Family Of 4 Image?. UPDATED...


....WEBB FAMILY GROUP OF 4:

Original Webb Family Black/White 

Note that the writing was on an original image and the image you see here is actually a photograph of the original image which had the writing on it...


IMAGE 1



IMAGE 2

Above Image With Coloured Writing

And Finally Here's Another Photo, Black & White
With Something Missing:

IMAGE 3.


There Are No Names & Charlie Is Missing

Was this the first image that later had the names added?
It seems that way...


I do not know why the writing colours and locations were changed. You will note that whilst the writing is in colour, the image itself is in Black/White.

There is a final puzzle to resolve. In the 3rd Image, there are no names and Charlie has been removed from the group. I presume that removing Charlie's image was done originally to build up interest in the following press announcement. On closely examining the colored writing, it appears to me that it was possibly done by hand and they overwrote the initial grey-coloured writing. I say that because the coloured handwritten lettering is actually slightly thicker/wider for each letter in each name. It was done very carefully it seems. Why would that be done?

Did you notice that in Photograph 3, the bottom of the pic has been torn off?

Who put the names on the first B/W image and how did they know the names? We can look at Roy and compare that to his Army enlistment photograph which I have done separately and whilst it is loosely similar it is not a perfect match.

Here's the Large family and friends group photograph:

Webb family and friends large group photograph, with names


Introduction

For all the fellow travelers (not a reference to communist party members ) who have been following the winding, twisting, and often tortuous road associated with the premature, in my view, identification of Carl Webb as the Somerton Man, this post reviews the issue of the now, notorious Webb family photos and of course that of the young footy playing Carl. 

There was much fanfare and not a little vaudeville that accompanied the initial release of the ‘family group of four’ photograph which was quickly changed so that the original names written in faded grey ink alongside each family member, underwent a miraculous colour change. I’ve put the two pics at the head of this post for those who missed it.

That family group photo is charming: Mum, Dad, Charlie, and Roy. A very joyful and healthy version of Roy compared to his later Army records photo. Roy was to join the fallen in the service of his country. That must have been a horrendous time for the family. While not wishing to dwell on Roy’s appearance, it is important to compare that happy day photograph and image of Roy with the service record one. Would you have immediately recognised that military pic as being the same person? Similar, Yes, but would you swear to it? That’s the power and the pitfall of photographs.


Comparison photograph of Roy Webb civilian with Roy Webb in uniform an enlistment photograph. Similar but not identical


But let’s move on.


The Photos We Have

There’s the classic family group of four, where Carl (Charlie) is pictured with Mum, Dad and older brother Roy. This particular photograph has been floating around in discussions for a while now. Then, we have the larger family and friends group photo, which, although a little busier, gives us more context about Carl’s life and connections. And then, of course, there is the younger Carl Webb in that football team photo, this is arguably the best photo we have of our 'man'. Imagine, all those family pics kept in a family album and not one wedding group photo among them. Well, not any that have been released. A little odd.

Challenges of Photo Quality

Old family photos are charming, but they’re not always the clearest. The family group of four, for instance, has seen better days. Fading has blurred some of the finer details, making it tough to pick out things like the sharpness of Carl’s jawline or the exact shape of his nose and the all-important distinguishing shape of his ear, his left ear. The larger group photo has its own issues—some faces are just too small and blurry to analyze properly and that applies especially to Carl Webb who, at first glance at this blurred image looks much younger than the Carl in the 'group of 4' photo. And then there’s the football team shot, which is in far better shape, that one had to have been taken by a professional photographer whereas I have doubts about the photographer of the family pics. If only they had turned those photos over, in those times the pro photographer’s name and details would be found there. Worth running a comparison of professionally taken large group photos versus one taken by a well-meaning but less skilled family member or friend perhaps.

Blurriness and fading aren’t just annoyances; they can seriously impact our ability to make accurate comparisons between Carl and the Somerton Man. When details like facial lines or the texture of skin get lost in the fog, it’s easy to mistake one feature for another—or miss something crucial entirely. The only stand-out feature is that mop of very blond hair, you’ll see that in the 'group of 4' pics in particular, ‘Charlie’s’ hair colour is notably different to his brother Roy’s hair. In the larger group photo, there’s that same mop of blond hair, and the same shirt with the long collar, just like Roys in fact. Was Charlie’s hair sun-bleached? I think so, not the sort of bleaching you get from a couple of days at the beach, I would say that it's possibly the result of prolonged exposure to the sun together with salt and wind.


This next image compares Charlie from the 'group of 4' photo seen on the left with Charlie from the larger group of family and friends:

A comparison photograph of Charlie 'Carl' Webb from Family group of 4 photograph with Charlie Webb from large Webb family and friends group photograph, Hair style appears exactly the same.

The hair of both images appears to be exactly the same.

Note that the image comparison above are the 'raw' images, neither
has been enhanced or coloured

Next is the image comparing Charles Richard Webb on the left with the Charlie photo on the right:

Comparison photograph of Charles Richard Webb in uniform with Charlie Webb
 Charles Richard, on the left, has a distinct parting in his hair and it sits quite
differently in comparison with Charlie's hair on the right.
The images were taken at different angles.

Impact on Age Estimation

Let’s look at age estimation, which, in a photograph is like guessing someone’s age at a glance, but with a lot more science behind it. The thing is, this science depends heavily on clear, detailed images. Wrinkles, skin tone, the definition of facial features—all of these provide clues that help the experts in forensic photography estimate how old someone is. But when those clues are hidden behind a veil of faded blurry pixels, all bets are off.


Photograph believed to be of a young Charles Carl Webb in football team group photograph.
 Note the parting in this photo

Take the football team photo above for example. Carl looks much younger here, and we could probably narrow down his age to within a couple of years. But even with this relatively good shot, any guess about his age comes with just a grain or two of salt. The family photos pose even bigger problems for age estimation, especially when the finer details are lost. One of its saving graces, however, is we get a clear image of his left ear in the team photo. As you can see in the image, he has a ‘tapered’ ear, quite distinctive. Back to the issue of age, we can’t really nail that and as far as I’m aware, I don’t think that’s been done as yet, 

Photo Enhancements and Facial Recognition: Pros and Cons

Photo enhancement tools and facial recognition software can work wonders on old images, but they’re not magic. Enhancing photos can sometimes bring out details we might have missed, but it can also introduce new distortions, making things even murkier. And while facial recognition software can compare features between Carl Webb’s photos and the Somerton Man, it’s only as good as the data it’s working with. If the original images are poor quality, the software might give us false matches—or fail to recognize a match that’s actually there.

On the plus side, these tools have come a long way and can certainly aid our investigation by cleaning up some of the visual noise. But they also have their limitations, especially when it comes to older, degraded photos. It’s a bit of a double-edged sword: while they offer more clarity, they also bring in the risk of over-interpreting the results.

Photo Line Ups, A Chequered History

Mistaken identity based on police photo lineup, images did happen in Australia although I think it's fair to say that it is not common these days due in no small part to less reliance on the technique. Here are a few examples of where Photo identification really fouled up

1. Case Name: Darryl Beamish

  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
  • Date of Incident: Convicted in 1961, exonerated in 2005
  • Summary: Darryl Beamish, a deaf-mute man, was wrongfully convicted of the murder of Jillian Brewer in 1961. His conviction was based largely on a confession he allegedly made through sign language, but also on eyewitness testimony that included photo lineup identification. The victim's neighbor identified Beamish in a photo lineup, which contributed to his wrongful conviction. Decades later, new evidence, including confessions from serial killer Eric Edgar Cooke, led to Beamish’s exoneration in 2005.
  • Source: "The Innocence Project: Darryl Beamish," Sydney Morning Herald, 2005.

2. Case Name: Andrew Mallard

  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
  • Date of Incident: Convicted in 1994, exonerated in 2006
  • Summary: Andrew Mallard was wrongfully convicted of the murder of Pamela Lawrence in 1994. His conviction was significantly influenced by the identification from a photo lineup, where witnesses identified Mallard as being in the vicinity of the crime scene. The identification was later found to be unreliable, and Mallard was exonerated in 2006 after serving 12 years in prison. The case highlighted significant flaws in the use of photo lineup evidence and the potential for misidentification.
  • Source: "The Fallibility of Eyewitness Identification: The Andrew Mallard Case," Australian Law Journal, 2007.

3. Case Name: Raymond John Carroll

  • Location: Brisbane, Queensland
  • Date of Incident: Initially convicted in 1973 (murder case), later exonerated of perjury in 2002
  • Summary: Raymond John Carroll was wrongfully convicted of perjury related to an earlier murder case involving the death of Deidre Kennedy. The perjury conviction was influenced by witness identification from a photo lineup, which was later discredited. The identification was shown to be flawed due to the influence of police suggestion and the inherent unreliability of photo lineup procedures. Carroll was eventually exonerated in 2002.
  • Source: "Misidentification and Wrongful Convictions: The Role of Photo Lineups in the Carroll Case," Queensland Law Review, 2003.

4. Case Name: Farah Jama

  • Location: Melbourne, Victoria
  • Date of Incident: Convicted in 2008, exonerated in 2009
  • Summary: Farah Jama was wrongfully convicted of rape in 2008. Although DNA evidence played a major role in his conviction, photo lineup identification was also used during the investigation. The victim, who had no recollection of the attack, was shown a photo lineup in which she identified Jama. The identification was later found to be unreliable, and the DNA evidence was discredited due to contamination issues. Jama was exonerated in 2009.
  • Source: "The Risks of Misidentification: Farah Jama’s Wrongful Conviction," Melbourne Law Journal, 2010.

5. Case Name: John Button

  • Location: Perth, Western Australia
  • Date of Incident: Convicted in 1963, exonerated in 2002
  • Summary: John Button was wrongfully convicted of manslaughter in the death of his girlfriend, Rosemary Anderson. While the case primarily revolved around a coerced confession, photo lineup identification also played a role in corroborating the prosecution's case. Button was exonerated in 2002 after new evidence pointed to serial killer Eric Edgar Cooke as the true perpetrator.
  • Source: "Eyewitness Misidentification and Its Impact: The John Button Case," Western Australia Legal Journal, 2003.

    The use of photo lineup evidence in Australia and elsewhere has played a role in numerous wrongful convictions.

    These examples underline the issues related to the current use of photographs in the Somerton Man case to suggest that the image of 'Charlie' in the 'group of 4' is totally different to a similarly dressed and blond-haired young man in the larger family and friends group:

Conclusion

So, where does this leave us? In the case of Carl Webb and the Somerton Man, the old family photographs are both a blessing and a curse. They give us interesting clues, but only if we can interpret them correctly—and that’s where the quality of the images becomes so crucial. High-quality photos make it easier to detect facial features and estimate age accurately, while poor-quality ones can lead us all astray. the family photographs are not particularly high-quality

Having gone through this exercise numerous times with a focus on the left ear, and having tried and tested various methods including the use of facial recognition software and for all of the reasons stated here,  my belief is that the Police and the Coroner will not be relying on any photographic evidence as a primary source of proof. 

I believe that they will be placing their faith in the evidence uncovered by the forensics team. Namely, it will rely on the dental chart taken by Doctor Dwyer at the autopsy to show whether the exhumed body was that of the Somerton Man and DNA to ascertain whether the body was or was not that of Carl Webb.

It’s essential to stay aware of the limitations of photographs as a means of identification. Every detail counts in investigations of this nature, and while photo enhancements and facial recognition tools can help, they're not definitive proof, they’re just one piece of the puzzle. 

Thanks for joining me on this deep dive into the world of photographic evidence as it applies to the Somerton Man mystery. 






28 Comments

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  1. Thanks for this, it clears up a few doubts I had. It's useful to have all of the photos together on a single page, it helps put things into context. Are you saying that if I were to use AI to improve an image, it doesn't necessarily help in the long run? I would have thought when they state 'image enhancement' that is what I would expect to get and enhanced photo.

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  2. Hi, yes, that's about it, the image maybe enhanced in terms of colour but in terms of fine detail, some of the quality will probably be lost in the enhancement process. It's the fine detail that would help the most. Glad you liked the photo collection!

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  3. All those family photos and nobody can see them
    Not without a Court Order anyway

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  4. I would think that possibly SAPOL would have seen them. Personally I don’t believe that they will have any bearing on the case, because there is no evidence at this time to support the claim.

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  5. On the contrary, it could strike out the claim. If all the evidence hasn't been seen it needs to be, not "possibly"

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  6. Not being legally qualified and not being privy to the state of play from SAPOL’s perspective, I think it’s possible that they will have seen the photographs. The crucial issue would relate to whether in the family album or collection of photographs there was a photograph of Carl Webb that could be dated after 1948. Perhaps you could offer your thoughts on that.

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    Replies
    1. You should explore that. There's doubt about who the family members are so I think that's a good line of investigation. We can't overlook the possibility that Carl Webb may be a different person not yet seen and a very short person. They don't reinforce their evidence and they leave us in doubt. Why is that.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for your comment, the issue here is that I have looked into this aspect and I do not see the full album and its trove of images being released anytime soon. Any discussions to be had on the matter would only be total guesswork and there would be no value in that from my prospective. I introduced the subject as a point not yet covered by anyone and yet, as I think you agree, its on point. Sadly I don't see it progressing any further this side of the inquest results.

      My position on the Carl Webb claim is that it is not one that can be substantiated, I base that on the fact that there is no valid chain of evidence that links the rootless shaft of hair examined by Astrea to the Plaster bust and no confirmation that other hair samples from other people were captured in the plaster bust mixture. Finally, the rootless hair shaft was the only hair sample sent that produced the results claimed and there are no others according to Professor Abbot.

      The results of the forensic examination of the exhumed remains may or may not resolve the issue. I do not believe that those results will prove conclusively just who the Somerton Man was.

      Delete
  7. I appreciate the feedback on another site regarding this post concerning the interpretation of facial features from old photographs. This is a topic that has sparked discussion in the past, and I believe it’s important to address these concerns with clarity.

    As I’ve highlighted in earlier posts on the subject and, in fact, the post above that addresses the recent claim made elsewhere that a Charles Richard Webb was pictured in one of the two images purporting to be Carl (Charlie) Webb, the interpretation of facial features, especially from low-quality or limited-angle photographs, can be fraught with challenges. This is a well-recognized issue in both forensic analysis and historical research. It’s not unusual for different photographs of the same individual to show variations that can lead to different interpretations. For those interested, below is a link to a much earlier post related to a 1940s Soviet Diplomat and known agent, Pavel Fedosimov and an example of how photographs of facial features can be deceiving.

    https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2019/10/somerton-man-fedosimov-nose-question.html

    If you would care to know more about Pavel Fedosimov, here's the search link for this blog which contains numerous posts on the subject of this man dating back to 2017, his name I understand was on the list of SAPOL persons of interest:

    https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/search?q=Pavel+Fedosimov

    It's understand that differing opinions are a natural part of any research discussion and this post is no exception, I believe it’s important to focus on the substance of the research rather than personal remarks.

    My aim on this blog has always been to present findings and hypotheses that are based on evidence and facts and where I can substantiate my statements I do so and where I am not able to do so I acknowledge that and include it in my posts.

    As demonstrated in earlier posts on the topic I encourage and am happy to take part in a constructive dialogue on this topic, as it’s only through open and respectful debate that we can further our understanding of what is an extremely complex historical case. If there are specific points of contention, I’m more than willing to discuss them in a respectful way based on the available evidence.

    In closing, I stand by the research I’ve conducted on Pavel Fedosimov and the conclusions I’ve drawn in relation to him, always with the understanding that new evidence can lead to new insights. I welcome any further discussion on this or any related topic.







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  8. What about Fedosimov's teeth? In his photograph you can see that his teeth are there, a bit crooked maybe but the teeth are there compared to TSM who had a lot of missing teeth?

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  9. The issue of Pavel's teeth is interesting and a fair question to ask. If you look closely, you'll see that his teeth are 'out of shape' or a 'bit crooked' as you put it. Whatever the case, there is something apparently not quite right about those teeth. The photograph that you see was taken in April 1947, a good 17 months before TSM was found on the beach at Somerton.

    If Pavel was the Somerton Man, and there is no way that can be substantiated at this time, then it is quite possible that some of those troublesome looking teeth could have been removed. SM had eighteen missing teeth in all mostly molars so those would not have been readily visible, it's the missing lateral incisors that would have shown up. The lower set of front teeth were generally intact, there been 4 teeth each left and right of centre in the lower jaw.

    Thanks for the question.

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    1. Assuming that the dental chart is the guy on the beach
      It may have been or not. We just can't establish that without doubt.
      It may be an undernourished street drunk whose body was mixed up.

      Delete
  10. DENTAL CHART: The dental chart was submitted to the inquest as an exhibit by Dr.Dwyer the man who carried out the autopsy. In his evidence to the Croner Dr.Dwyer identified the exhibit as being in his handwriting and it was his chart made at the time of the autopsy. Evidence doesn't get much better than that. Dr. Dwyer was a man of integrity and had an outstanding record of service.

    This is a subject that has been raised and answered before in the same way. My answer remains the same. If you have solid evidence to the contrary then please send a copy in and also inform the SA Police.

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  11. Nobody is questioning his integrity
    There is an element of doubt that is insurmountable
    because of how bodies were handled and records kept in that era
    There are 50,000 people, being 20,000 adults at West Terrace Cemetery in unmarked graves
    Nobody can say for certain that the body in the grave is the one that was on the beach for that reason
    They just don't know who is where and who is who in that cemetery and in that era that's how it was.
    People buried without proper identification, and sent to the morgue and taken from the morgue in mix-ups. 1948 post war years the world still in turmoil with the cold war. Just the burial of another dead body was how it was.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-10/changing-attitudes-see-families-mark-babies-graves-in-adelaide/7833100

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  12. Thank you, that explains your position far better and I appreciate that. From here we can develop the discussion further. Before we do, I think that this post is not the correct thread for your comment or discussion as here we are dealing with the Webb photographs whereas your discussion is more about the inquest/autopsy and the documentation and evidence surrounding them. I will leave these two comments here for a day or so but will be moving it to the correct thread later. I hope that makes sense, it's all about how posts and comments are categorised and easier to manage and for site visitors to search. As you might have noticed the site is undergoing an overhaul and there are still some matters to be fixed.

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  13. Hang on, the new photo is a worry. If there were no names on the original one how would they have known who was who? And that one of 'Roy' in civvies' doesn't look that much like the Roy in uniform. Any other pics?

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    1. Sorry, no more photos at least at the moment, there could be a perfectly logical explanation for this but it just escapes me at the moment. And I don't know how the names were arrived at either :)

      Delete
  14. I've not seen image 3 before, where did that come from? Did you find it or request it? Doesn't look right at all, someone's been messing around with the family album I reckon.

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    1. I can help you here, Image 3 was on the ABC website at the time of the initial press release. I missed the torn off bit though, should have noticed that. I have no idea why or how that happened.

      Delete
  15. A fair bet that the torn off bit was where the real names were and the tear looks to be a fairly new one, not stained or worn at all.

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  16. Here's the link to the Google search page for the third image:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Webb+family+photo+group+of+4+ABC&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU861AU862&oq=Webb+family+photo+group+of+4+ABC&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigAdIBCTE0MzE5ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#vhid=wb-fvqWm4GIaxM&vssid=l

    This image only shows on the Google search page, I was unable to find it on the ABC site when I followed the link.

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  17. So you think someone doctored the photos for some sort of advantage ?

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  18. No, it wouldn’t be correct to say that. It would be fairer to say that the evidence of the photographs shows some anomalies/unusual aspects for which there is no explanation at this time. Keep an open mind and keep questioning the evidence without jumping to conclusions. There may be a simple explanation for it and it’s just not apparent as yet.

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  19. I see you've been working on the site GC, looks good. loads quick on the mobile. Read the FACT CHECK page, some amusing people out there, they sound really confident but they never quite live up to it. In the business it's known as the 'Dunning-Kruger effect' Have the best day ever!

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  20. Hi Josh, it's taken a while to get the site optimised, it needs to load quick on mobile because that's where most people reach us. Still a few more tweaks to do. I did the FACT CHECK page because quite honestly I'm over the trolling and abuse from afar business, it's gone on for years, they can't help themselves, you might have noticed that they only work in little gangs. This way I can show everyone just how they work but right here on this blog and deal with their fabrications and/or lies one at a time. Having said that it's not about them, its about the Somerton Man case that's why they are tucked away on a page that people can visit and the comments will pop up on the right hand column.

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  21. Confirmation bias could be relevant, in more than just photographs. The identity therefore shapes and adds bias to theories explaining his death, how and why and if anyone else was involved. The identity will need to be settled and once settled I might be able to clarify why i think certain coincidences may matter in explaining why and how he died and how his death might relate or not to a number of other murders or suicides here and overseas. You're findings in relation to decryption of the codes will be important. You're findings in relation to the type of encryption has already been extremely useful to point my research to certain directions, however I've also had to be wary of confirmation bias, as it had lead me down a couple of interesting but unsubstanable directions.

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  22. In Image 3, you need to move grandma over in front of grandpa's arm.
    Then the spacing of the persons is correct
    Otherwise grandpa's left arm length is monstrous
    Shoulder to elbow, elbow to hand.
    His hand would almost be touching his toes, standing up
    You measure it.

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  23. On photo 3, I measured elbow to hand 65mm and shoulder to elbow 45mm = 110mm
    and if we hang grandpa's hand down 110mm from his shoulder on Image 3 it is down around his ankles
    We have all been conned

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