Whither Goest Thou?
There are many references to this term, dating back to the time of Christ and including, as in the image above, a book published in the 1890s'. But this post is not about the origins of the term it is a question related to the Somerton Man case, just where it stands and where it's heading.
Current Status
The SA Police (SAPOL), have for some years been gathering information on the Somerton Man case and that effort increased in tempo following the exhumation of remains said to be those of the Somerton Man in 2022. The exhumation was called for by many with the effort being spearheaded by Professor Derek Abbott of Adelaide University which is now incorporated with the University of South Australia.
Shortly after the exhumation, Professor Abbott announced that he had proof that the Somerton Man was a man named Carl Webb.
This is the 3rd claim made by the Professor in relation to to the Somerton Man.
Claim 1, was that the Somerton Man had a condition known as 'Anodontia' plus he had a rare ear type in which the Cymba is larger than the Cavum, this occurs in between 1 and 2 % of the Caucasian population according to Professor Abbott. The claim stated that these were traits found in the nurse's son, Jessica Harkness. therefore, in all likelihood, Jessica's son was fathered by the Somerton Man.
This claim was incorrect because the ear type was also present in a grandson of Jessica whose mother came along after the Somerton Man's time. Regarding the man's teeth, the claim was that he had anodontia a condition where the lateral incisors were missing as an hereditary trait and their place taken by the canine teeth. However, the dental chart taken by Doctor Dwyer at the autopsy of the man shows that the man did not have the condition known as anodontia, the chart shows that the man had a total of 18 missing teeth which, even for those times was quite rare, no reason for this has been identified.
Ear Comparisons:
Dental Chart, Exhibit C2 Coronial Inquest:
The dental chart is a little confusing as the Professor was aware of the missing teeth as it is included in his Wiki which you can find here:
https://www.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au/personal/dabbott/wiki/index.php/The_Taman_Shud_Case_Coronial_Inquest
In an article published by Professor Abbott in the IEEE Spectrum Magazine in March 2023. while a rootless 5 cm long hair ample is mentioned as the one sent to Astrea Labs in the US who are regarded as being at the forefront of technology in rootless hair DNA identification. No mention is made in the article of where that hair sample came from nor when it was taken or by whom.
All previous attempts at gathering useful DNA had failed.
Other efforts have failed, and so to zero in on the 'owner, of the hair sample, Professor Abbott used a process known as 'Imputation'.
We refer to the following articles regarding the use of Imputation:
In the literature, when more than 10% of data are missing, estimates are likely to be biased (9). Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8426774/#:~:text=In%20a%20literature%2C%20when%20more,to%20be%20biased%20(9).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10245797/#:~:text=Importantly%2C%20the%20size%2C%20data%20quality,to%20those%20more%20distantly%20related.
Scientists use the genotype imputation method to fill in missing information when they're looking at someone's DNA code. Occasionally, it's not possible to read the genotype of a specific
It has been said that our ears change as we age, this is true however, these changes do not occur until around the age of 40 years and they present as a lengthening of the ear lobe. Apparently, the structure of the ear does not change.
Incorrect assumption. There is no evidence that dental chart is from the man on the beach. We don't know if there was a mix up or any other possibility. It would need to be dated and marked "from unknown man on Somerton beach" and have an official mark ie govt stamp or morgue file number. It is inadmissible evidence in proof of identity. Furthermore it cannot be verified by Dwyer because Dwyer is dead
ReplyDeleteI am looking forward to your source information, case law, legislation etc. When will you send that?
DeleteThanks for your comment.
ReplyDeleteYour statement however is incorrect. This dental chart was produced in evidence at the 1949 Inquest and was accepted by the coroner and entered into evidence. The exhibit numberwas C2.
I suggest that you read through the evidence before making statements, the inquest documents are available. for download here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4FgVwct8qNUV0MtMlRXcnJRMEU/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-kVN2wkV9hpdaOhRl-dnIwA
If you have source materials or references to support your claim then produce it or provide substantial reasons why you can't. Simply making a statement because it suits a theory does not make it true.
I know that your intentions are good but getting involved in cross blog comments is not where this blog belongs so the previous 2 comments will be removed.
ReplyDeleteThe issue of AI that’s been raised is important as it will impact on blogging in numerous ways mostly positive. Research is one area that will benefit and will include an example that I carried out some time ago in this post that relates to the matter of Doctor Dwyer’s dental chart of the Somerton Man.
This is for the previous commenter who resides normally on another blog under the pseudonym 'No.1.' For that person's information, what follows may help you understand just what case law and legislation references are used to substantiate the validity of items entered and accepted in evidence at a coroners court here in Australia.
ReplyDeleteIn the inquest regarding the body found on Somerton Beach on December 1, 1948, a dental chart was presented as evidence. This dental chart was created by Dr. Dwyer, the doctor who performed the autopsy on the body.
Dr. Dwyer provided testimony to the coroner, stating that he personally drew the dental chart based on his examination during the autopsy. This established the authenticity and accuracy of the chart.
Additionally, there was a clear chain of evidence that linked the body found on Somerton Beach to the dental chart. The body was identified and confirmed as the same one examined by Dr. Dwyer.
Here's the relevant legislation in South Australia, you should check out this link:
https://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/lz?path=%2FC%2FA%2FEVIDENCE%20ACT%201929
And specifically note Section 55, the Act was continuously reviewed and updated as you will see.
https://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/lz?path=%2FC%2FA%2FEVIDENCE%20ACT%201929
...and case law:
High Court of Australia Cases: Several cases illustrate the principles of evidence admissibility in Australian law:
Smith v The Queen (2001) 206 CLR 650: This case discusses the necessity of proper authentication and the admissibility of evidence based on expert testimony.
Dasreef Pty Ltd v Hawchar (2011) 243 CLR 588: This case emphasizes the importance of the expert being qualified and the evidence being directly relevant to the issues in the case.
There are numerous references to US Case Law that you could follow up on.
The bottom line is that your comment is and was totally incorrect and misleading to any visitors to your home blog.
What's the situation with copyright for this blog? Can I use it for my blog or include it in a book or movie for example?
ReplyDeleteA good, timely question. Anything a blogger creates and publishes is inherently that bloggers copyrighted work. That includes text, images or video. So the short answer to your question is no, you cannot take and use any of the content on this blog that was created here. Occasionally I use material from wikis and other sources that are either Creative Commons items or are done with expressed or implied permission. Those items you can choose to use if you wish but take care of the expressed or implied rules when it comes to books or videos or uses that stray outside of those rules.
ReplyDeletePlagiarism is rife in the Somerton Man case as many would know. Those days are coming to an end for the plagiarists with the advent of specific AI tools that can accurately find and record instances of plagiarism.
Thanks for the question, I hope this helps, if you wish to make use of any of the content found here, please get in touch and we can work on it together.
Presumably in the ‘can of worms’ scenario, the case would still be an open one and the police would have it on their books as such. But surely it would mean so much more than that? If the teeth don’t match then whose remains were exhumed? And the bigger question is what happened to the Somerton Man’s remains? So the mystery deepens and some kind of conspiracy is exposed. What happens next?
ReplyDeleteWouldn’t that be a turn up for the books. Right at this moment I assume that SAPOL would be the only ones to know the answers. There are 4 options here and regardless of which turns out to be true, there will still be an element of mystery to one degree or another.
ReplyDeleteThe options are:
1. The remains are Carl Webb’s and the dental charts match making him SM
2. The remains are Carl Webb’s but the dental charts don’t match thus he is not the SM
3. The remains are not Carl Webb’s and the dental chart matches SMs
4. The remains are not Carl Webb’s and the dental charts don’t match SM.
Interesting isn’t it?
No.1, I can see that you are passionate about your views on Doctor Dwyers evidence, I respect that but as you know I don’t agree with your views. The people you need to convince include SAPOL and the coroner.
ReplyDeleteThis is entirely up to you of course, but what I suggest you do is to research other inquests where Doctor Dwyer has given evidence and see if you can find instances where he drew dental charts or had handwritten notes that you could use to verify his handwriting. You might come across other examples of how exhibits are admitted into evidence. Do some research and see if you can substantiate your statement.
I also suggest that you read carefully through the SM inquest documents and depositions or statements and see how often the issue of 18 missing teeth is mentioned.
Once you’ve done that, you could compile it and send copies to SAPOL and to the SA coroner for their review.
I wish you well with your research.
You are welcome to do your own homework please
ReplyDeleteEven if the teeth were to match you would need to establish that the bodies weren't mixed up in the morgue (it has happened even in recent times). How are you going to do that. How can you establish that the body in the grave is the one that was on the beach. That is your challenge.
It’s a good and interesting question. The next step, that’s if the dental chart matched up, is to cross check the DNA from the teeth matches the DNA from the thigh bone for an example. That way we match the skull and the rest of the body.
DeleteWhen it comes to ascertaining that the body from the beach is the body at the autopsy, we have the chain of evidence that says the body at the beach was the body in the ambulance, was the body at the morgue at the autopsy and the body that Jimmy photographed.
Is that 100%? No, but no case was at that time, it was however the best evidence available and it was all there was.
Could this have been a cover up? There is no evidence whatsoever to prove that was the case. There is chain of evidence to prove the opposite was true. Bring some evidence to support the claim and maybe it will be listened to by those who make the decisions. I am not amongst them and neither are any other bloggers much as they may try to claim the mantle.
What matters is not best guesses or feelings, what matters is truth.
On the bloodstains on SMs shirt, was it from another body or from him?
ReplyDeleteWalk through the events. The body is delivered to the morgue an an autopsy is carried out. Jimmy Durham photographs the body. To do that the body, fresh from the autopsy, has to be lifted and the shirt put in place.
ReplyDeleteIt is more than likely that the bloodstains to the shirt happened then. It is highly unlikely that they were the result of an unclean body tray or a swapped body.
Do you think the whole thing is a sham
ReplyDeleteI suppose it is possible but, while there are a number of questions related to certain aspects of the case, there is no evidence to support it. There are a great many theories with not a few blogs posting and commenting on nothing but theories. Finding evidence is the most difficult and challenging aspect of ‘investigation’ and that’s where it differs from standard ‘research’. So the answer is that theoretically it is possible but there is nothing in the public sphere to substantiate it to this time.
ReplyDeleteSanders says that SM was wearing a collarless shirt with studs when he was found on the beach so it couldn't be the same shirt with the blood on it could it?
ReplyDeleteThere is no reference to a collarless shirt worn by the man when found in the inquest documents and not in Clelands notes either.
DeleteThere were collar studs found in the suitcase but no separate collars were documented. He must have got them confused. He has a track record for 'slip ups' like the one you've quoted.
Have you traced all the other morgue or mortuary records around that time and looked for what might have gone on
ReplyDeleteYes, I reviewed documents and Police reports that are publicly available. Here's an example of the sorts of things that you can find, I hope you find it interesting:
ReplyDeletehttps://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2023/01/the-somerton-man-mystery-webb-dna-games.html
I see you've gotten yourself a whole thread on the CM site GC :)
ReplyDeleteAh well, if they're talking about me, they're leaving someone else alone.
ReplyDeleteHad a squiz at that page, it looks like a place where old trolls crawl to and hurl their last insults and abuse before they finally disappear.
ReplyDeleteOn CM one bloke had a trove link at the top of the post and then a typed description of how the fingerprints were taken, the trove link didn’t match the description, nothing like it. Is that how dead peoples prints were taken?
ReplyDeleteYes, I saw that. No big surprise given the nature of that forum. There are special tools for taking prints from the deceased, they may have been a little different in the 40s but similar. Here’s a link:
ReplyDeletehttps://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2014/10/somerton-man-fingerprinting-somerton.html
On that particular comment I didn’t see any reference as to how they put the shirt and tie on SM? A significant part of the task but according to the ‘writer’ it didn’t apparently happen.
Anyway, best to close this thread off here. Lots of more important things to attend to than the state of the conversation on other blogs.
What on earth is Sanders on about? Is he ok?
ReplyDeleteYou know I don’t think he is ok, it sounds like it’s another psychotic episode. It can’t be any fun for him. I just wish him well and hope he works through it ok.
DeleteI tested out a deep search AI tool and searched your site for a ‘shirt and collar’ but there is no mention as per JS’s allegation. However I did find a reference on the Cipher mysteries site, in fact it was in one of his very recent comments and he specifically said it was on their site not yours. He’s deeply confused I think. A psychotic episode could account for it or perhaps some kind of medication/drugs he may be taking. I agree with you it can be no fun for him going through it.
DeleteI copied his comments, he is definitely accusing you GC of saying the things that he actually said and the stuff about shirts and collars are on their site not this one. I can’t find any reference to you saying that the photos were taken on the same day either. He does seem to be deeply confused.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem that he is getting confused, his earlier comments are clear on the statement 'If you think really long and hard etc..'
ReplyDeleteStrangely he has commented today suggesting that the 'collarless' comment came from this blog despite his obvious claim to the contrary.
He has done similar things before notably with some of the ladies following the Webb threads, he lost the plot then and they were most upset by his behaviours at the time. I think some of them left after that incident.
Whatever, there are way more important issues to deal with at the moment, getting the book finished being top of the list.
It is fairly obvious that what the trolls are doing is to attack and discredit anything you do or say because of your upcoming book. From a legal perspective, they would be wise to tread carefully.
ReplyDeleteJohn, I \have found no reference to a 'white shirt with collar' in any of the work emanating from my posts. However, if you read Gerry Feltus's book, on page 39 you will find that particular phrase there. Seems you were mistaken. With regards to the sequence of events, that statement is correct. If I had meant a 'timeline' of events I would have described it as such. Now that you have the correct information can I respectfully suggest that you double check your sources before making comments that might mislead the readers?
ReplyDeleteWell John, if you're that sure how about it why don't you point me to the exact page URL so that I can see it because there is no trace of it in anything I have published. Substantiate it John.
ReplyDeleteWell John, it does seem that you were wrong. The snippet that you took was not from the this blog and quite definitely not published by me. Please try and be accurate with any future comments, it would be considered courteous and would be appreciated if you were to acknowledge your mistake.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJS well you've badly overestimated your own capabilities in the research and substantiation stakes.
ReplyDeleteThere is no mention whatsoever of a separate collar and tie anywhere in the inquest documents, there is just one mention in GFs book on page 39 on the 'white shirt with collar'. The An Empty Glass ' site was known to me but the post from which you made your incorrect assumptions was created by Sue d'nimh on 15th November 2015, she was the original administrator but left due in no small part to the behaviour of abusive trolls like yourself. I was asked by Fandom to take the site on in order to get rid of you , you were busy abusing and trolling on the site. I and one other became Admins and barred as the first order of business. Your claim that I had purloined the site was totally untrue, a complete fabrication.
Back to Sue, she had it right when she mentioned the 'white shirt with collar'. The Inquest talks of two collar studs, one front and one back, being found in the suitcase and that's it full stop. No separate collar mentioned anywhere. You have made a fool of yourself John and all because you failed to do the research and investigation work.
As for the sequence of events I posted, that's exactly what it was, not a timeline. I am assuming that you know the difference.
You should shape up or ship out, instead of constantly abusing this blog and myself why don't you make an effort to contribute something of value to the Somerton Man case?
I have no more time to waste on you or any other troll, there are far more important things to do. That includes working on the book and for the record there are more interesting things that have come to light.
John, you are very inventive and predictable. In one step you totally ignored the fact that you had the issue of the ‘white shirt with collar’ which was your first claim, entirely wrong, you then positioned your 'victim' as the problem and then attempted to emerge as being right all along.
ReplyDeleteWere you being Deceptive? Yes. Devious? Yes, Dishonest? Yes.
Your comments were not only factually incorrect, they showed an astonishing lack of knowledge on all matters including that of copyright raising questions and serious doubts about your credibility..
Your subsequent move on another thread to 'slip into character' as a nice, caring and sharing and innocent player was far from impressive and totally transparent.
Consider yourself exposed for who and what you really are.
Lie upon lie and day after day. Reading the lies that you post on the Cipher Mysteries blog about this blog and about me personally makes me feel physically ill. And that I suspect is your goal.
ReplyDeleteKnow this John, in Queensland what you are doing is known as harassment, when you mix defamatory remarks with harassment, it becomes a Criminal offence. In NSW that's not the case but the NSW Police advised that they have other options in dealing with cases like this.
Nick Pelling should also note that as the publisher of the deeply offensive comments, he is also liable.
Enough is enough John.