...ABLE SEAMAN CARL WEBB
VETERANS RECORDS SEARCH RESULTS...
...Many months ago I sent in a request to the US National Archives and last night I received a response with some surprising information about Able Seaman Carl Webb...
We have a number of journalists and other commentators that regularly call by this blog and it crossed my mind that a special journalistic copy for this post may be of use to them:
In an exclusive update from the United States National Archives in St. Louis, new details have emerged concerning the elusive identity of Able Seaman Carl Webb, whose name in recent months found resonance with the ongoing Somerton Man mystery.
Previous investigations into this mystery led to the unearthing of a crew list from the SS Golden Sun, an American-registered vessel that plied routes across the Pacific that included Australian Ports. Notably, one of the enlisted crew members, Carl Webb, bore striking similarities in age with the Somerton Man.
In the correspondence received from St. Louis, it was revealed that despite comprehensive searches, the National Archives failed to unearth any records relating to Carl Webb, who reportedly served on the SS Golden Sun in 1934. Of significant note, the exhaustive investigation encompassed all military data—Navy, Army, and Air Force—yet yielded no matches. The archives' conclusion? Carl Webb was most likely a civilian contractor working onboard the ship—a not uncommon occurrence in those times.
While it is suggested that Webb may not have been a US citizen, confirmation of the details is yet to be received.
The revelation last year by Adelaide University Professor Derek Abbott that the Somerton Man had been identified primarily rested on a single strand of rootless hair that was found in a plaster bust of a body thought to have been that of the man, and which was made by the late Paul Lawson in June 1949. However, recent developments in relation to the use of human hair in the plaster of 'slip casts' as was the case for the Somerton Man, have raised serious doubts about the credibility of this claim.
The conundrum intensifies when considering the potential link between Able Seaman Carl Webb and another individual by the same name, born in Footscray a suburb of Melbourne. The two share what appears to be an identical age, and historical documents prove that the SS Golden Sun regularly docked at Australian ports, including Adelaide, Melbourne, and Sydney, reinforcing the possibility of a connection.
The Footscray-born Carl Webb's physical characteristics, including what appears to be sun-bleached hair, create intriguing contrasts to the Somerton Man. A significant discrepancy in their respective heights is a crucial point. Able Seaman Carl Webb, as per records, stood at 5 feet 8 inches, far shorter than the Somerton Man, whose height was recorded as 5 feet 11 inches by the police. This conflicting detail strengthens the hypothesis, as suggested by several observers, that Carl Webb was most probably not the enigmatic Somerton Man after all.
SS GOLDEN SUN CREW LIST:
Copy of Unmarked Crew List:
Tags
Able Seaman Carl Webb
Professor Derek Abbott
Somerton Man Mystery
SS GOLDEN SUN
US National Archives St Louis
Was that article AI?
ReplyDeleteNo actually. It was done by a journalist friend in the UK. I sent her the bones and she got back within an hour. I suppose she could have used AI though. Hmm.
DeleteCarl Webb isn't Somerton man
ReplyDeleteWebb family has nothing to do with it
What are you going to do
ReplyDeleteif the Coroner declares it Carl Webb
in a "nothing more to see here" folks, let's all move on
You have no proof of anyone else
Actually there is proof that Carl Webb is not the Somerton Man. Carl Webb's ears are totally different to those of the Somerton Man. That is a fact and it is clearly visible. There is also growing evidence that the hair samples examined by Astrea are suspected of being from hairs used in the formulation of the plaster for the slip cast prepared by Paul Lawson. Such hairs were gathered from various sources. There is a question regarding the hair shaft and why it was that the only hair sample left produced a positive result when the hair samples from the same subject which comprised of roots and shafts did not.
DeleteThe coroner is examining the evidence including mine and others and he will decide whether the man in the bust is the Somerton Man.
If he does that then there remains the question whether the man in the bust is Carl Webb and according to the evidence and to the words from Dr Xanthe Mallet the forensic expert, they may never know the identity of the Somerton Man.
If it there is a match to Carl Webb then to be certain, the DNA from the jaw of the exhumed remains needs to be matched to the DNA from a bone in the body of those remains. Bear in mind that Paul Lawson clearly stated that the skull had probably been removed and it had been cleaned out.
Let's say that the man in the bust is Carl Webb, a man who was smaller than Paul Lawson expected, then the task will be to show that the dental chart from the exhumed remains would have to match the chart made by Dr Dwyer from the jaw of the Somerton Man.
I suggest that if you have proof to the contrary you send it in. I will publish any genuine and substantiated article.
So there is evidence and ample reason to doubt the voracity of the DNA results thus far.
I am eagerly awaiting your genuine and substantiated information.
That narrows the field a fair bit. The additional search criteria applied by the Archives people makes a huge difference. Still room for doubt though until you can find more records on civil contractors. He should be in there somewhere. Nice work.
ReplyDeleteIf the Coroner dismisses your opinion
ReplyDeletewho will you put forward as Somerton Man to counter it
Derek has a person through DNA but you don't have a person
You have an opinion and that's fine but let me explain something. I did not express an opinion in the evidence I provided, I stated some facts and it's for the coroner to decide how and if those facts have a bearing on the case. He will decide whether the body is that of the Somerton Man.
DeleteI do not have to put forward or nominate anyone who may or may not be the Somerton Man. It's all a matter of the evidence and right now there is another crucial piece of evidence to add to the growing list and that is the information regarding Able Seaman Carl Webb as discussed in the above post.
So in summary, we have Carl Webb's ears that are totally different in shape to those of the Somerton Man, Carl Webb's height has been openly questioned and with good reason, there is evidence that shows that it is very possible that human hair was used as a binding agent in the making of slip casts such as the one made of the body worked on by Paul Lawson. This has been corroborated to an extent by a recently unearthed 2009 YouTube video of the bust with Professor Abbott commenting on the mass of hair showing on its surface. We have Paul Lawson's comments that mortuary soap was used to plaster down the hair on the body of the man to stop it getting entangled with the slip cast materials. And now in the above post we raise the possibility of the 5 foot 8 inch tall, Able Seaman Carl Webb being the same Carl Webb who was born in Footscray. You can add to that list the fact that the company Astrea, now appears to have closed with no new items published on its website since October last year.
I can see that you have little knowledge of how these processes work and there's nothing wrong with that, everybody has to learn sometime.
If in the end Carl Webb is proven beyond any doubt to be the Somerton Man i would be amazed but If the incontrovertible evidence is there to support that as fact then I would have to accept it.
It really is all about the evidence and not a question of who is right and who is wrong.
An update. I've been discussing this information with Pete Davidson and we are in agreement that there are some most interesting avenues we can take from here.
ReplyDeletePeter has uncovered information on the ownership of the Shipping Line and when the ownership changed, the name of Australian agents for the line and the fact that the Golden Sun had a change of name.
I will put this into a second post or an update to this one in the the next day or so.
It's important to acknowledge that these are very interesting developments but we still have further work to do in order to prove or otherwise the exact identity and related data of Able Seaman Carl Webb.
An annonymous comment queried the date of the crew list. It has always been known that the document is 1934 but the interest is not in the date of that document. There are two pieces of information related to the crewman listed as Carl Webb, first his age in 1934 which aligns with Carl Webb born in Footscray and secondly the listed Carl Webb has a height of 5 feet 8 inches. That's 3 inches shorter than the Somerton Man therefore if the listed Carl Webb is shown to having been born in Footscray, he cannot be the Somerton Man. We can add the height difference to the significant difference in ear shape and physical appearance of his face which has been proven not to match the face of the Somerton Man. Simply put we are already at the point where we can say he does not match the face of the Somerton Man and having a proven height difference would add to the fact.
ReplyDeleteNot quite. John Smith won't hold water
ReplyDeleteNEWS ON CHARLES WEBB. CREWMAN. In 1947, a Charles Webb was a crewman aboard the Admiral Capps ex Le Havre. His date of birth is shown as November 1904 and in Connecticut. The question I would ask is if you were skipping the country would you use your real credentials or try to cover them?
ReplyDeleteThis is by no means a certainty, it opens up a possibility and there is much more yet that needs to be checked out.
I notice that he intended to live in Belfast NY. I will add the Crew list details to this post in the morning, I am not supposed to be here at the moment :) Another interesting item has arisen but not about Charles Webb. Will comment shortly.
Yet another find of a young pantry hand 'British' born Circa 1905 and named Charles Webb a crew member aboard the Mauretania in 1925 ex Le Havre. Can't quite make out his height on the form but it is either 5 feet 8 inches or 5 feet 5 inches. Will add the crew list in the morning.
ReplyDeleteA very quick update on Able Seaman Charles Webb. There are many mentions on crew member Charles Webb on voyages within the date range as well as from 1947, 1949 and 1951. I would guess there are at least 25 ships and dates. These mentions are all for a man named Charles Webb born Circa 1905, his height seems to vary by an inch or two between 5' 6 to 5' 8. I am beginning to think that the accuracy of some of the entries might be dubious.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem that this has opened up the issue of whether Carl/Charles was a seaman and whether it was possible for him to return to his old trade in 1947.
There are so many variables and this is just a possibility at the moment. It may lead is nowhere but there is also a chance, a slim one maybe, that amongst these crewmen named Charles Webb, we will find our man.
If our man skipped the country he literally could have gone anywhere but if he wanted to maintain his seniority and pay rate he would have had to keep most of his original information in place.
If this gets somewhere then that would be terrific and if not, well at least we can take the possibility off the list.
For those interested I found these entries on My Heritage.