This post has its beginnings, the photograph of a youngish Carl 'Charles' Webb. This image is taken from the larger family and friends group photograph published on the ABC News platform in 2022.I wondered at the time how a young man from regional Victoria could get such blond hair especially when the earlier image of him in a soccer team photograph showed his hair to be a darker colour?
The immediate thought was a result of spending many hours in bright sunlight. Either that or just maybe he had been at sea, as a merchant seaman perhaps. That led to a search of records for merchant seamen and that in turn led me to the crew list for the SS Golden Sun where I found an Able seaman in 1931 by the name of Carl Webb on the crew list, his date of birth was similar but his height was just 5 feet 8 inches.
I undertook extensive research with numerous communications with US authorities and archives. The result was negative.
Some historical background to this information. In the 1920s which, if proven correct, was when Carl or Charles went to sea, the press was filled with stories and accounts of young men who ran away or went to sea, a great adventure. The press was not he only influencing factor, the airwaves were filled with sea shanties as gramophone recordings were plentiful. Going to sea was a definite 'thing' in those years. A search of TROVE using the search term 'ran away to sea' is all it took to confirm a suspicion.
Carl Webb or Charles Webb?
Recently, on reviewing the Carl Webb story, it struck me that I should have also been searching for a 'Charles' Webb, moreover, to be totally objective, the dates I should be searching should include dates after 1948.
Within 20 minutes I came across pages of references to a seaman called 'Charles Webb'. So many in fact that it quickly became obvious that I was more than likely dealing with several different people of that same name and, as it happens of similar birth dates.
I needed a differentiation, I needed to break that long list by qualifying the entries even further. The simplest way was to look for the names of crewmen who were not registered as American citizens but had their records listed as British or English citizens. In those years, Australians were issued British passports and regarded as British citizens.
Charles Webb a British citizen yielded several results and he had the same year of birth.
Significantly, some of those instances were for voyages that occurred after 1948.
Here are some of the crew lists recently found in rough date order, you will be able to view the progress from beginnings as a pantry hand to an OS (Ordinary Seaman), AB (Able Seaman), and QM, (Quarter Master)
1. This first Crew List dated 1949 is interesting firstly because it is dated 1949, secondly because it arrived in NY from Venezuela and thirdly because the Charles Webb listed is recorded as being German:
2. This next list contains the name Charles Webb and is dated 1949 but Charles is noted as a 'failed to show ' seaman:
3. Dated 1947, a key year, this note is a list of the known races allowed to be employed on US-registered ships. Note that Australia is not included:
4. Next, the Crewlist of the ship CARMANIA, the interesting feature of this list is that it contains Charles Webb's Seamans Identification card number: 1047141. He is marked down as British. Uncertain about his position though. He was in the right age bracket, his height was 5 feet 8 inches. Strangely, many of the Charles Webb records I have looked at have the height listed between 5 feet 6 inches and 5 feet 8.5 inches. The year is 1929.
I will upload more later today time permitting.
Does that mean that our Carl 'Charles' Webb took off and went to sea around 1921-22 at the tender age of 16 or so? At this stage, it is a possibility but not a probability.
Crew lists are a good source but not always true. A good point that you mentioned on the Nationalities. No Australians just Brits passports for most Commonwealth countries.
ReplyDeleteGot me wondering, if Webb is onboard a ship in 1949, where did the hair sample for the dna come from?
ReplyDeleteThe operative word is 'if', right at this moment we are far from being certain that a crewman named Charles Webb is in fact the same Carl 'Charles' Webb born in Footscray. It's still a good point though, should it be proven that he was around in 1949, one of the first questions to be asked would be the one you raised here.
DeleteA note for JS, the uncertificated fingerprint information was first noted on this blog almost 10 years ago, and that's why we are all familiar with it. October 1st 2014 was the date, I am sure that you innocently overlooked the fact.
ReplyDeletehttps://tamamshud.blogspot.com/search?q=fingerprints
Fingerprints were sent by wire in those days. If a hard copy were needed, then a copy would be sent not the originals. Originals are always kept at HQ records.
ReplyDeleteJS, I look forward to viewing the copy of the document that says the original certificated version of the Somerton Man’s fingerprints were sent central records in Sydney.
ReplyDeleteWhenever you catch Sanders out he replies with a garbled nonsensical line or three which almost always ends up putting the blame on you even when he was clearly wrong. As for Bowes his reputation for trolling is well deserved as is his 'borrowing' of your content to be rejigged and re-authored by himself. Isn't he capable of writing authentic content anymore? Anything to grab attention.
DeleteI appreciate your comment and I wouldn't normally publish anything that would be detrimental to others. this occasion is a little different though. The current troll attack is all about diversion. This post has done something no one else has apparently thought about, the focus being on the notion that Carl 'Charles' Webb did not die on the beach at Somerton on December 1st 1948. That being the case, the question I put is what happened to him? In earlier posts I had suggested that Carl 'Charles' Webb with his mop of sun bleached hair may well have got that aboard a ship. An in depth search followed and I managed to find just a few examples of crew lists were found that contained the name Carl Webb together with a similar date of birth.
DeleteAnd now here we are some 2 years later considering the question of 'What really happened to Charles Webb?' Was he a seaman in the 20s and 30s and did he return to the sea after all his family had died and his wife departed to greener pastures.
As for the trolls, they're really not important in the scheme of things, they contribute little to nothing and what they do find has generally come from someone else.
No oxygen for them from this blog from now on.
He went to visit his brother's grave. Left Australia from Perth, probably went up the Malay Peninsula, met with misadventure, or just slipped off the radar there. Never came back to Australia. That's why he's not here.
DeleteThat's a reasonable thought and a possibility. It would help if you had information regarding his trip details from Perth, then it becomes a very definite probability. Do you have that by any chance?
DeletePerth to Singapore
DeleteYou hitch a ride on a tramp steamer
DeleteHop onboard, do some work as a crew member if you have some skills, get a free ride and hop off at the port and no passport needed. All the ports were open. Just walk off. They don't know who you are in those countries and they don't care
DeleteI wouldn't dispute that those kinds of things happened and could well be right. But in order to substantiate it, the next step has to be checking out the My Heritage records on a Charles Webb born 1905 and only records after 1947. There are a few people working on it at the moment. Keep an eye on this page and if you get time take a look around the My Heritage site and get on their free trial if you're not already a member.
DeleteYes, I had heard of these things happening but it's also true to say that the Unions, especially in Malaysia, at the time were applying a lot of pressure on Ship Owners regarding working conditions. If you get chance look up Lance Sharkey, senior CPA man who was charged around that time with inciting trouble in Australia and moved up to Malaysia to stir the pot there as well. I am not discounting your ideas just that wherever possible we have to nail something down with documentation.
DeleteIn Charles' case, in 1947 he would have had maybe 20 years service behind him prior to the war and he would want to make sure that he somehow had it taken into account, it would have made a lot of difference to his pay and conditions even then.
Just a free ride. Hippies were doing it in the 60's on tramp steamers. Ships with foreign crews. Registered to who knows what port overseas. Walk along the wharf "where ya headed ?" "Singapore." "Take me ?" "Yeah come on up" All the ports were open. No fences.
DeleteHe lived at Cott Beach. You can walk to Freo from there. Just down the road. The port was huge as a shipping port. Walk around and look at all the buildings, pubs, etc. from that era. You'd bum your way on to a ship going to Singapore without trying.
DeleteAll good thinking but it needs to be strengthened a little if you want to take it from being a possibility to its next step which would be a 'strong possibility'. It could be that you are right and it was the way his new life started if indeed he did leave Australia.
DeleteWorking from your thoughts and then adding in his need to earn decent money, he would want to somehow get his pre war service counted but even that is on the basis of the initial thought that Charles had bleached blond hair, the sort of hair colouring you would get with prolonged exposure to salt, sea air.
Let's stick with that while we pursue your line of thinking. So, he makes his break by catching a ride on a steamer leaving Freo. It may have been on a ship he was already familiar with, maybe he knew the skipper or one of the officers. He would briefly explained the circumstances as in Mum, Dad, brother Roy all dead and his marriage a train wreck. He's given his free ride as a result.
the next step in the research would be to test out the theory and see if we can get a list of all steamers that called in at Freo from say mid to late 46 through until late 47. It would be quite a list but not too great a number.
I suggest that you check out the date when he left the Red Point Tool company as a starting point and see where that takes us.
I will help where and when I can but right at the moment I am knee deep in a range of tasks, some personal and some connected with the Somerton Man case.
I looked up on My Heritage and found 1100 records plus for Charles Webb with a circa 1905 birth year. Lot of work there.
ReplyDeleteYes, it seems a big number but if we sharpen the focus down to the name, year of birth 1905, post 1947 records with a British passport, I think that number could be less than 100.
ReplyDeleteOk, got that. Then there would be some dUpLication or more of the same person to think about so maybe we get down to a short list of 14 or 15 records. What then?
ReplyDeleteAnd now here for your delight and entertainment is another dramatised view of the Somerton Man case, this one includes references to the Tibor Kaldor case which was of course initiated on this blog following the finding of a small newspaper article by early Ally, the real Clive Turner and then followed up to reveal Tibor's history and that of the Dunera Boys. Readers may want to note that a link was found between Tibor and William Sher by researcher Peter Davidson. Tibor lived walking distance away from the Red Point Tool company's location in Windsor.
ReplyDeleteHere's the link to the dramatised story:
https://myfox8.com/business/press-releases/ein-presswire/703090579/rest-of-australias-somerton-man-case-mystery-solved-using-his-own-code-as-deciphered-in-2021-okcir-sociologist-reports/
And here's the link to the Red Point Story and Photos:
https://tamamshud.blogspot.com/2022/11/somerton-man-mystery-63-bromby-street.html
Calling the OKCIR report into the Somerton Man a "dramatised story" is very generous. It is actually a verbose, turgid, badly written, ill-informed fantasy piece, full of childish snipes at other researchers, wild assumptions about the characters involved in the case - presented as facts - and deliberate disinformation. The author is also a plagiarist and does not have the decency or sense of professional honour to acknowledge his sources.
ReplyDeleteFor example in a comment on Cipher Mysteries back on October 19 2022 ('Somerton Man: The Webb v Webb files...' thread) referring to you Mr C as an "outsider" - a typical tactic of not naming his rivals or adversaries - he (posing as Behrooz) states "The oursider [sic] may have said other things relating the Somerton Man that may seem unreasonable. However, I actually believe a particular line of his work regarding Tibor Kaldor is very important, just in terms of finding background information about Kaldor and not in terms of how he uses the info in support of this code theory." Does he acknowledge your contribution in his rambling, delusional dream piece? No!
He was in some cack-handed way trying to defend you from a mischievous comment by a fellow contributor by the name of Steve H(urst), a cantankifarious individual from Blackpool, England, who has made frequent, unpleasant attacks on others who were merely trying their best to muddy the waters over there on Mr Pelling's worn out blog, such as John Sanders and David Morgan. Two honester gentlemen you couldn't come across even if their sole mission is to obfuscilate the evidentitarial issues and bamboozilify any of the more serious researchers, who all seem to have deserted Cipher Mysteries like rats from a sinking banana boat.
However the author of said fantasy - whose style makes fellow storyteller Pete Bowes look like Henry James - has also plagiarised and copied Steve Hurst's findings first mooted on Cipher Mysteries back in 2022. He calls Carl Webb's potential involvement with JC Williamson Ltd the "elephant in the room” in the case: "The expression is used when there is an important piece of fact or clue readily present on the scene but those observing the scene simply do not notice it and/or its significance." He makes great play out of the assertion that nobody else had discovered this putativacious link but Mr Hurst had in fact raised it back on 13 October 2022 (same thread).
Not only that but Mr Hurst - posing as "Bob Dylan" (!) - had also already linked a YouTube video - 'Theatre in Australia' - that the OKCIR author used extensively in his story, and the aforesaid scribblifier used the very same extracts to illustrate his argument that Mr Hurst had pointed to in later contributions to Cipher Mysteries. (See eg comment 21 March 2023, '"Under The Counter", The End of A Long Run...' thread.) All totally without acknowledgment or thanks.
When you think Mr C that the whole fandrongo seems to be based on two pillars - your Tibor Kaldor findings and Mr Hurst's research on JC Williamson Ltd and the firm's links to the Russian ballet - without even any mention of your/their names, one can only conclude that the author is totally lacking in grace, academic detachment, professionalism and the most basic sense of honesty and good manners!
You have obviously spent time and a good deal of thought on composing your comment it is appreciated and I thank you for it. I got in touch with Behrooz and pointed out the issue re Tibor. He responded quite politely and the situation is now cleared up.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your comments on the issues of plagiarists and trolls within the SM space, when these things occur it’s a sad reflection on the blog owners and commenters concerned and more than sad is the departure of good, industrious and experienced researchers with whom I may not agree but for whom I have great respect. You will have noted that those who ply their trade as a troll or plagiarist rarely if ever contribute anything of value to the case, they are just background noise and as such are irrelevant. There are still many stones to be upturned and existing ones to be reevaluated, that and the pursuit of the truth in the SM case remain the objective for myself and the blog. Thanks again.
I know this is off topic but I read somewhere that spies would tie their laces a certain way to communicate! I’m going to check the photos of SM’s shoes to see if they matched the reference picture I was sent!
ReplyDeleteYes they did do that, it was one of a number of ‘signals’ that were used as identifiers or sometimes a warning.
DeleteWhen it comes to the photograph of the shoes, ot other items and people in fact, it is a good idea to check them but be aware, whilst we have a photograph, we have nothing that substantiates that those shoes were the SMs shoes. If a photo of the shoes had been entered in evidence to the original inquest together with the information on the numbers/letters found inside them, that would confirm them and they would then be a reliable source.
Sounds picky I know but it is the level of detail that the police routinely go to.
I would say that going to this level of detail is probably one of the reasons why the SM exhumation and identification case is taking such a long time.
The job has not only has to be seen to be done but seen to be done thoroughly. These are the sorts of questions that the coroner will want answered, the last thing anyone wants is to have to go through the whole process again.